Mafia 1 - The CROWN - GAME OVER!

[EscapedConvict]

..but currently the people I trust most are Joesatri, Mary, Gridfon and Stringer in order.

May I ask why Mary?

And EscapedConvict it's good that we see things eye to eye, but I just feel neutral to you at the moment

Feeling is mutual.
I liked the fact that you spoke freely and coherently against the majority consensus, at the time, about Moxy's case.

For the record I'm usually a pretty polarizing figure, but im glad to see that there's also a middle ground with some people.

[Stringer]

You know what I want the most? Bragging rights to come, if you turn out to be innocent.

Oh lol, I second that.
I don't know if Moxy is innocent or not, but if he is, I am going to laugh so hard at those who thought of him guilty enough to lynch him on first day.

On a separate thought....
10 votes are required for lynch right?
How many mafia should then exists? Because classic 1/3 of mafia would be 9 mafia players. Which mean they would need to convince just one towny to vote with them to lynch someone during day at their leasure. Seems inbalanced.
Any guesses of how many mafia there should be for 28 players in total and 10-votes limit on lynch?

[EscapedConvict]

Original Post:
less then 3 hours left

Acceptable Post:
less then 3 hours left

[edit by Daemon]

[Moxy]

@Moxy: That's indeed a very good point I had not thought off so far. You are absolutly right concerning this ... all NTA's are executed simultanously.

[...]

The more I think about this security team thing the more it irritates me, why would there be another team within the townie faction? Also the thing with Skuggi not being able to respond and you coming up with that "I didn't sign the messge thing" does not make sense to me. Finding the security team, for what purpose do you need to find them? You should know your team anyway, it's just not logical at all.

Due to that all your are the best target to vote on for day one, so that's my vote.
vote Moxy

That was the reasoning for my vote. So the thing with the message is clarified. What I still can't grasp is the securtiy team thing? Can you elaborate that ... then I am glad to unvote you.

All I was told that the purpose of being able to send the message is to communicate and find my security team which I am the head off.

They should be able to reply to me the next night. Of course If I signed it. As I didn’t sign the first night they wouldn’t of been able to send one back. Because they would t know who to send it too. And also it was a random choice hence why I only sent a coded message rather than hi I’m the severity head are you a member of my team...
Which could be sent to anyone even mafia.

Maybe the other members of the severity team is the investigator or someone else I don’t k ow just speculation.

[Stringer]

And on another separate thought, as someone said, I can't remember who, suspicion should be based on implicit, subconscious behavior rather than explicit behavior.

If someone is being very aggressive without realizing it, that's their subconscious telling them to do so, even if they sound perfectly logical at that.
And aggression is one of two typical defensive reactions. Other one being staying quite. Fight or flight instinct, anyone?

It makes sense to first suspect very aggressive and very quiet people, regardless of what logical reasons they give for that, because it indicates them being stressed, which mafia players subconsciously are.

[Moxy]

On a separate thought....
10 votes are required for lynch right?
How many mafia should then exists? Because classic 1/3 of mafia would be 9 mafia players. Which mean they would need to convince just one towny to vote with them to lynch someone during day at their leasure. Seems inbalanced.
Any guesses of how many mafia there should be for 28 players in total and 10-votes limit on lynch?

I would guess there Isn’t 9’mafia you right needed 1 more vote on someone that isn’t mafia is unbalanced

So 28 players, 9 mafia would be a third but that seems to much for mafia with deadline as 10 to be honest I would guess 4/5 mafia with maybe a traitor thrown into the mix.

[Moxy]

There might even be 6 mafia but I wouldn’t expect more than that

[Princess.ruxi]

And on another separate thought, as someone said, I can't remember who, suspicion should be based on implicit, subconscious behavior rather than explicit behavior.

If someone is being very aggressive without realizing it, that's their subconscious telling them to do so, even if they sound perfectly logical at that.
And aggression is one of two typical defensive reactions. Other one being staying quite. Fight or flight instinct, anyone?

It makes sense to first suspect very aggressive and very quiet people, regardless of what logical reasons they give for that, because it indicates them being stressed, which mafia players subconsciously are.

Correct. Aggressive behavior is what got Moxy on the spot.

[valli]

@Moxy: That's indeed a very good point I had not thought off so far. You are absolutly right concerning this ... all NTA's are executed simultanously.

[...]

The more I think about this security team thing the more it irritates me, why would there be another team within the townie faction? Also the thing with Skuggi not being able to respond and you coming up with that "I didn't sign the messge thing" does not make sense to me. Finding the security team, for what purpose do you need to find them? You should know your team anyway, it's just not logical at all.

Due to that all your are the best target to vote on for day one, so that's my vote.
vote Moxy

That was the reasoning for my vote. So the thing with the message is clarified. What I still can't grasp is the securtiy team thing? Can you elaborate that ... then I am glad to unvote you.

All I was told that the purpose of being able to send the message is to communicate and find my security team which I am the head off.

They should be able to reply to me the next night. Of course If I signed it. As I didn’t sign the first night they wouldn’t of been able to send one back. Because they would t know who to send it too. And also it was a random choice hence why I only sent a coded message rather than hi I’m the severity head are you a member of my team...
Which could be sent to anyone even mafia.

Maybe the other members of the severity team is the investigator or someone else I don’t k ow just speculation.

Still what benefit does that security team bring. What is the role of the security team? You are not really answering that.

[Moxy]

I would also like to make this clear. Do not let radwulf or anyone else when it reveals that my role name is true suggest that the role name is part traitor clan it is 100% townie and DO NOT let them suggest otherwise

[Sander]

They should be able to reply to me the next night. Of course If I signed it.

Mox, stick to what you know. You always reason for facts, but you tend to not follow your own. This is your speculation. Do you realize this is why you are being lynched?

[Moxy]

@Moxy: That's indeed a very good point I had not thought off so far. You are absolutly right concerning this ... all NTA's are executed simultanously.



That was the reasoning for my vote. So the thing with the message is clarified. What I still can't grasp is the securtiy team thing? Can you elaborate that ... then I am glad to unvote you.

All I was told that the purpose of being able to send the message is to communicate and find my security team which I am the head off.

They should be able to reply to me the next night. Of course If I signed it. As I didn’t sign the first night they wouldn’t of been able to send one back. Because they would t know who to send it too. And also it was a random choice hence why I only sent a coded message rather than hi I’m the severity head are you a member of my team...
Which could be sent to anyone even mafia.

Maybe the other members of the severity team is the investigator or someone else I don’t k ow just speculation.

Still what benefit does that security team bring. What is the role of the security team? You are not really answering that.

Because I do t have that answer I wasn’t told. But surley being able to send message with Your previous night NTA results to people you know you can trust without revealing that result or NTA to the mafia is highly useful no?

[Moxy]

They should be able to reply to me the next night. Of course If I signed it.

Mox, stick to what you know. You always reason for facts, but you tend to not follow your own. This is your speculation. Do you realize this is why you are being lynched?

I do know that Daemon clarified for me that is a fact.

[behemoth]

What will I do if moxy turns out to be a townie? Same thing I've been doing so far: vote based on suspicious play. And with every end of the day we will have more information and it will be harder for people to hide behind vague or crap logic posts.
And if I don't catch it someone else will.

Explain then why you keep your vote on Zero since the first page. What suspicious play?
It seems very odd to me that you seem to be contributing, but not voting. Why?

I second that Princess, she brings up good points but her actions seem to lag behind

[Moxy]

And I would hazard a guess the other members of the seceruiry team have ntas as well, do you not see how useful is sharing the nta results of the previous night with each other during the night where mafia can’t read it allow can be extremely useful. A not letting mafia k ow what we k ow and. Or letting mafia k ow who we are?

I failed at the last point but that is extremely important and helpful dont you agree ?

[Princess.ruxi]

I would also like to make this clear. Do not let radwulf or anyone else when it reveals that my role name is true suggest that the role name is part traitor clan it is 100% townie and DO NOT let them suggest otherwise

No need for that. It has already been pointed out several times.
Personally, I'm 80% sure you are Chief of security. I also think your security team is not what it looks like (townies), but a separate faction.

[Skuggi]

Apologies, I have been away all day and see that a lot has happened. In the interest of time, I'll try to reply quickly and read through the two pages again and see if I missed any questions.

I received the message from Daemon at Sunday night around 9PM GMT. I also asked Daemon about it to make sure there was no mistake or that something was missing from the message. He said there was no mistake.

I think I also hadn't mentioned that I received the message in my inbox, leading me to believe it is an email (opposed to a note or something else). As it was specifically stated to be anonymous, I don't see how I could have replied to it.

[Moxy]

Yeah like I said skuggi I think you couldn’t reply to it because I didn’t sign and because all NTA’s happen at once and would need to wait tonight to reply. But because I didn’t sign it you don’t who to reply to.

[Heffie]

Apologies, I have been away all day and see that a lot has happened. In the interest of time, I'll try to reply quickly and read through the two pages again and see if I missed any questions.

I received the message from Daemon at Sunday night around 9PM GMT. I also asked Daemon about it to make sure there was no mistake or that something was missing from the message. He said there was no mistake.

I think I also hadn't mentioned that I received the message in my inbox, leading me to believe it is an email (opposed to a note or something else). As it was specifically stated to be anonymous, I don't see how I could have replied to it.

So did he say you could respond at any point? I don't think he'll come back a day later with a "by the way you can respond" now. It doesn't make sense, one or the other people could be dead so there would be no real communication. Brings me back to my point that the only purpose of such a role is to confuse and if I put it together with the blocking ability he's some non townie faction. I'm disappointed that trigardon isn't responding... Makes the game slowdown and suck.

[EscapedConvict]

Updated vote count:
10 required for deadline lynch

2 hours left!. As things stand right now Moxy will be lynched.

Moxy 11 (blissie, radwulf, phox, princess.ruxi, SilveXtru, behemoth, zero, Mary, Bombaclaat, valli, MrWaffles)
Trigardon 5 (rene, Skuggi, Moxy, Heffie, Gridfon)
radwulf 4 (Adela, Stringer, Escaped Convict, Sander)
NO LYNCH 3 (pelasgi, Telvek, Trigardon)
behemoth 1 (Siderite)
zero 1 (noni)
Mary 1 (Emilly)
Valli 1 (Nanaa)

PS: Daemon, if you find mistakes feel free to edit my post.

[Moxy]

Yeah like I said skuggi I think you couldn’t reply to it because I didn’t sign and because all NTA’s happen at once and would need to wait tonight to reply. But because I didn’t sign it you don’t who to reply to.

Heffe your not reading posts another mafia in the lurk?

[Moxy]

So I need to change the mind of two people I know that is not going to happen sigh just wish you guys would allow me to prove myself

But yeah please please please don’t let these people get away from this all WILLY Nilly there is mafia in their. Especially rad and valli.

[Mary]

Sheesh what a flurry of activity! I'm not finished reading but with the day nearly done I wasn't sure I'd get a chance to post before 20:00

With regard to the EC's campaign of keeping Moxy around until he proves himself, I think Gridfon made some really valid points. It would be really hard to corroborate given how many NTAs are likely at play in a game like this, with 28 players. So I think the town stands to gain more from putting an end to this malarkey. There have been hundreds of posts devoted to trying to ascertain Moxy's innocence and the bottom line for me is that there are just too many inconsistencies. Not to mention that while this dominates discussion, there are for sure mafia who are riding on the coat tails of this activity and loving it.

Also, what is your master strategy to get around this?

To clarify about Moxy, I'm not sure he has a way to prove his innocence by using his NTA. Whatever he claims about his next night's action, it will very unlikely to be conclusive. Because it would require a confirmation from another person who is trusted by everyone here, and it would also require that no one interfered with Moxy's actions.

To me, you seem to suggest wasting a substantial part of the next 2-3 days focusing on Moxy in the face or arbitrary excuses of why he did not target someone you trusted, or why someone else [presumably] interfered and prevented Moxy from proving his NTA abilities.

[EscapedConvict]

With regard to the EC's campaign of keeping Moxy around until he proves himself, I think Gridfon made some really valid points.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Moxy can prove his innocence. You won't be able find a quote from me that would say that.
I replied to Gridfon's points and emphasized that as well amongst other things.

You're being very selective on what you're "reading" from this thread.

[Rene]

Apologies, I have been away all day and see that a lot has happened. In the interest of time, I'll try to reply quickly and read through the two pages again and see if I missed any questions.

I received the message from Daemon at Sunday night around 9PM GMT. I also asked Daemon about it to make sure there was no mistake or that something was missing from the message. He said there was no mistake.

I think I also hadn't mentioned that I received the message in my inbox, leading me to believe it is an email (opposed to a note or something else). As it was specifically stated to be anonymous, I don't see how I could have replied to it.

Thank you Skuggi. I think being able to receive the reply on the next night, after you sign the message is too far as a saving grace, Moxy. As I've said before, I'm changing my vote to you, not like it matters with these numbers, but I said I would do this after Skuggi's confirmation and I intend to keep my word.

unvote Trigardon
vote Moxy

[Moxy]

But I’ve explained fully why he couldn’t reply and why I was wrong to begin with. And radwulf knows this too

Yet he failed to explain that part when we spent hours discussing it he failed to explain the ntas happen at once which he knows from the games he’s modded. He failed to bring that information forward he’s just let us spend hours on this and me? Now why is that?

[phox]

But I’ve explained fully why he couldn’t reply and why I was wrong to begin with. And radwulf knows this too

Yet he failed to explain that part when we spent hours discussing it he failed to explain the ntas happen at once which he knows from the games he’s modded. He failed to bring that information forward he’s just let us spend hours on this and me? Now why is that?

Didn't he say he is in a different timezone? should be an explanation for delayed responses... or maybe it was on purpose who knows

[Moxy]

Oh come on phone he was the one that led the charge on this he k owe but just didn’t bother bringing it forward cause it didn’t suit his mafia agenda

[Moxy]

Pleas when it’s revealed that I’m telling the truth that radwulf and valli is mafia

[Mary]

With regard to the EC's campaign of keeping Moxy around until he proves himself, I think Gridfon made some really valid points.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Moxy can prove his innocence. You won't be able find a quote from me that would say that.
I replied to Gridfon's points and emphasized that as well amongst other things.

You're being very selective on what you're "reading" from this thread.

He'd have to prove himself as trustworthy, in order to be used for the town's purposes (this is what you have been campaigning for today is it not?) I know you suggested that we could use him and then dispose of him at any time via instant lynch , but he'd still have to prove himself in the respect of doing exactly as he is instructed. If it came to it and we decided that he's no longer useful to the town, then a lot of day time energy would again have to be rallied for an instant lynch. This would provide ample more opportunity for scum to fly under the radar.

I said there were lots of post devoted to trying to ascertain his innocence, I did not mean that you were a stark campaigner for his innocence. I don't want to argue about semantics, I was just explaining why I'm leaving my vote where it is.

[Stringer]

Still what benefit does that security team bring. What is the role of the security team? You are not really answering that.

At risk of sounding captain obvious, the security team role must be to protect?...
It's Daemon we're talking about, he wouldn't call that group (assuming there is a group) "Security" just for the sake of naming it anyhow, and then give it a completely different role in spirit, he is pretty meticulous about such things.
Cooks prepare foods, scientists research stuff, janitors clean, guards protect, etc. It's pretty much definition of the word. Think "security" at hotel or something.
Well, there are also prison kind of guards, who keep prisoners imprisoned, but even then their general role is to protect good guys from bad guys, and ours is not a prison situation. Officially appointed scientific facility security must be there to protect.

[Moxy]

To be fair I would agree with Mary in that perspective if it wasnt me in this position. Sorry EC I know you’re on my side for some reason but Mary is right no townie would let me live and I wouldn’t if the shoe was on the other foot.

But townies please listen to what I said about radwulf and valli there using story native to lynch me not facts and quotes.

And dont forget I blocked Trigardon and there was a no kill. Please don’t let the three of them of lightly.

[Moxy]

Still what benefit does that security team bring. What is the role of the security team? You are not really answering that.

At risk of sounding captain obvious, the security team role must be to protect?...
It's Daemon we're talking about, he wouldn't call that group (assuming there is a group) "Security" just for the sake of naming it anyhow, and then give it a completely different role in spirit, he is pretty meticulous about such things.
Cooks prepare foods, scientists research stuff, janitors clean, guards protect, etc. It's pretty much definition of the word. Think "security" at hotel or something.
Well, there are also prison kind of guards, who keep prisoners imprisoned, but even then their general role is to protect good guys from bad guys, and ours is not a prison situation. Officially appointed scientific facility security must be there to protect.

I’d give up stronger it’s valli he’s mafia nothing you say will change his mind cause he knows he’s lynching of a townie.

[phox]

With regard to the EC's campaign of keeping Moxy around until he proves himself, I think Gridfon made some really valid points.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Moxy can prove his innocence. You won't be able find a quote from me that would say that.
I replied to Gridfon's points and emphasized that as well amongst other things.

You're being very selective on what you're "reading" from this thread.

He'd have to prove himself as trustworthy, in order to be used for the town's purposes (this is what you have been campaigning for today is it not?) I know you suggested that we could use him and then dispose of him at any time via instant lynch , but he'd still have to prove himself in the respect of doing exactly as he is instructed. If it came to it and we decided that he's no longer useful to the town, then a lot of day time energy would again have to be rallied for an instant lynch. This would provide ample more opportunity for scum to fly under the radar.

I said there were lots of post devoted to trying to ascertain his innocence, I did not mean that you were a stark campaigner for his innocence. I don't want to argue about semantics, I was just explaining why I'm leaving my vote where it is.

And also, as Noni pointed out, an instant lynch would be difficult to obtain
(some people are at work and can't read dozens of posts that have piled up, different timezones, the players that are active are not agreeing so much with eachother)

[valli]

Unvote Moxy

No need to give up Moxy. I read Stringers post, I checked the previous Mafia game. It is a legit answer and we had a similiar constellation in that game. So as that reason for me to vote for you is eliminated as well I have to unvote.

[Moxy]

What’s the point there is no way other people will remove their vote either in time or believe me. They haven’t before why would they Now......

[valli]

That's up to others, I can only justify my action Moxy. There is still over one hour time. It's the vote of each single person which counts in the end.

Concluding that I can only go for the other voting option, which is to push the guy, wich brought all this Moxy drama on top of us.

vote radwulf

Edit: fixed vote

[Moxy]

thank you maybe your not mafia scum as I thought or maybe your removing your vote To try and be more innocent knowing that it won’t make a difference with 10 mins to go.

[EscapedConvict]

Updated vote count:
10 required for deadline lynch

1 hour left until deadline!. As things stand right now Moxy will be lynched.

Moxy 11 (blissie, radwulf, phox, princess.ruxi, SilveXtru, behemoth, zero, Mary, Bombaclaat, MrWaffles, rene)
radwulf 5 (Adela, Stringer, Escaped Convict, Sander, valli)
Trigardon 4 (Skuggi, Moxy, Heffie, Gridfon)
NO LYNCH 3 (pelasgi, Telvek, Trigardon)
behemoth 1 (Siderite)
zero 1 (noni)
Mary 1 (Emilly)
Valli 1 (Nanaa)

PS: Daemon, if you find mistakes feel free to edit my post.

[Moxy]

Oh wait I’m not gmt+1 not gmt haha there’s is another hour to go lol

Still don’t think there’s any point mafia won’t let be go without being lynched anyway but I thank you for the thought;)

[valli]

We still have over 1 hour, it's around 18:50 UTC.

[Moxy]

Yeah but I still need to change two peoples minds i doubt that’s gonna happen

[MrWaffles]

Unvote Moxy

No need to give up Moxy. I read Stringers post, I checked the previous Mafia game. It is a legit answer and we had a similiar constellation in that game. So as that reason for me to vote for you is eliminated as well I have to unvote.

Hi valli,

Can you please explain your thought process? What is similar to the previous Mafia game?

-Amit

[Nanaa]

Sorry my absence! Tbh, I'm really overwhelmed by the amount of posts. I feel guilty for being able to read half of them carefully so far. I got a broken finger which means I can't sleep well some nights and type that fast to take notes. I'm not on full sick leave from work either. (Daemon can confirm broken finger, told him before game)

Anyways, since day ends:
unvote Valli
vote Moxy

Some notes for reasoning, most brought up by others already too:
Moxy
1. Sent msg to Skuggi which might be code for mafia to assist each other. Or placed sentence there to back him up later coz he knew he has to claim role soon.
2. Says he blocked Trig (couldn't leave room). Trig was Moxy's first vote so it'd have been believable choice. But Moxy's vote for Trig didn't last long which was surprising.
3. Moxy said: "There’s nothing in the story to suggest that they are part of the story. If I was mafia surley I would try and claim a scientific role?"
-Not true. Backstory mentioned that in shift change there was auxiliary personnel too. Also comm technician was killed.
4. Why act so aggressively and recklessly if he got so important role? Pushing himself to ultimately to reveal role.

I think Moxy is non-townie with block NTA and Skuggi's same faction to back up the message NTA story.
Or Trig is also same faction to back up the block (but unlikely)

I think the shift where people started to unvote Moxy and vote Trig to prevent Moxy's insta-lynch is interesting to follow up later. If indeed Moxy gets lynched and he is revealed to be mafia/non-townie, these vote-shifters may be same faction (Rene at least. Didn't get other names yet except zero but zero wants Moxy lynched now so it doesn't count anymore)

[valli]

I saw previous mafia games where we had a group of roles with a head as well, so for me this is similiar and I could imagine a similiar setup. As each mafia game is its own universe I can also be totally wrong.

I cannot go more into detail as this would be linking to external resources which is not allowed and I clarified that.

[valli]

That post above was referring to MrWaffles.

[Moxy]

Nanna I am vehemently thatbtrig is mafia cause I blocked him and there was no kill now the hell are we working. Together makes no sense

[Stringer]

Moxy, a small consolation, but if you die and turn out to be innocent, at least your death will not be in vain: at least townys will have the general idea of who the mafia is, because if you are indeed innocent, you can be sure that most, if not all, mafia are among those who voted you.
Makes for a smaller suspect pool next day.

Also, Trig might not be mafia, no night kill could be for different reasons.
I mean, 28 people. For all we know there could be healer(s?) in setup who got lucky.

[Gridfon]

How can Moxy block the mafia killing?
1. Mafia players usually designate the one to carry out the kill, and they can choose a mafia member who is not blocked.

Depends, the mod can designate. (Godfather)

2. According to Moxy's description of his role, it seems he blocks only the outgoing NTAs of his target, but he does not block other people from choosing the same target for their NTAs. At least that is my take on it; I voiced it and no one disagreed with me on that. Do you disagree with me on that?

Sure, didn't say otherwise.

3. Even if Moxy could block all incoming and outgoing NTAs, you told that we as townies choose the target, so obviously mafia are aware of it and will simply not target the same person for a kill.

I was referring to blocking a mafia kill or blocking an infection.

Your response is ambiguous, so let me check I understand you correctly. Are you saying that may be the mod did not give them a choice to delegate who kills/infects people, and we happen to randomly decide to block that target?

[Rene]

I think the shift where people started to unvote Moxy and vote Trig to prevent Moxy's insta-lynch is interesting to follow up later. If indeed Moxy gets lynched and he is revealed to be mafia/non-townie, these vote-shifters may be same faction (Rene at least. Didn't get other names yet except zero but zero wants Moxy lynched now so it doesn't count anymore)

What you call the shift was the first concrete action to get a role claim from our only possible suspect based on night time activity, when compared to pointing fingers at people over behavioral analysis. Joesatri was the one who asked for it as they couldn't vote yet they had some convincing points. Yes I defended Moxy, even if it was to just offer antithesis to thesis for the most part. And I tried to corner Trigardon for that role claim Moxy shared, but Trigardon never did. And deep down I still hope Moxy turns out to be innocent to be honest, so this hundred percent certain town can start guessing themselves. Though I also believe, it's highly unlikely at this point, because of that last message function debate. That's why l changed my vote to Moxy as well, and that didn't catch your attention for some reason?