Mafia 1 - The CROWN - GAME OVER!

Guilt is a numbers game.
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Noni
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#2351

Post by Noni »

@Rene I'm giving you until tonight at 9.if you don't come forward I'm voting you back.
Seriously it feels like you're just doing it out of spite

Gridfon
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#2352

Post by Gridfon »

It would have been very convenient for Clemens and Behemoth to claim sister roles on the town side, while both being mafia. None of them claimed to have NTAs, so it would be hard to catch them lying about their night activity. So I checked Behemoth this night, and their room had no traces of infection.

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#2353

Post by phox »

@Rene I am slowly losing my patience. There is nothing for the town to gain from your stalling. I am glad I didn't remove my vote before,I might just need to keep it.

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behemoth
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#2354

Post by behemoth »

Gridfon wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:22 pm
It would have been very convenient for Clemens and Behemoth to claim sister roles on the town side, while both being mafia. None of them claimed to have NTAs, so it would be hard to catch them lying about their night activity. So I checked Behemoth this night, and their room had no traces of infection.
About as convenient as Noni and Sanders:)
speaking of which, I shall go back and investigate

Meanwhile waiting on Rene.. time is money, so let's move this along buddy

Sander
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#2355

Post by Sander »

Noni wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:38 pm
Looks like @Sander and I are like minded
I disagree. I can’t target myself. I would expect you to hang out in front the doctor his door. Since you know. Doctors are high priority targets.

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Noni
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#2356

Post by Noni »

Sander wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:54 pm
Noni wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:38 pm
Looks like @Sander and I are like minded
I disagree. I can’t target myself. I would expect you to hang out in front the doctor his door. Since you know. Doctors are high priority targets.
I have to be honest I thought the doctor would save valli which the Mafia would anticipate and go for a target less likely to be saved,hence picking myself.

MrWaffles
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#2357

Post by MrWaffles »

@zero, did you try to save anyone last night? Sander saved Noni, but Noni watched her own door and did not see an attacker. Since no one got infected today, whoever you saved might be innocent (as Mafia won't target Mafia).

Edit: Unless there are other pro-town blockers still in the game or the Mafia targeted Telvek (which would probably be dumb).

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#2358

Post by Clemens »

Alright, so what do we do now?
Move ahead with @Rene or get the remaining last night NTAs out or the remaining role claims.
Because this is going nowhere.

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#2359

Post by Noni »

Clemens wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:26 pm
Alright, so what do we do now?
Move ahead with @Rene or get the remaining last night NTAs out or the remaining role claims.
Because this is going nowhere.
Can you think of any reason rene might be right about not revealing the role name?

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#2360

Post by Clemens »

The most obvious would be that he's hiding something incriminating.
As for his claims that it would be better for us to lynch him later and focus on the true evils instead, I can only imagine that he'd have to be a conspirator and wants to kill off the one or other infected first.
But he's also claiming he's not a conspirator. :roll:

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#2361

Post by Heffie »

This is frustrating because we got no response from @Rene or @zero .

I feel like I need to go through the posts once more but I won't be able to tonight. Open to suggestions as I'm trying to consider other avenues besides voting for @rene.

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#2362

Post by Heffie »

Clemens wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 11:31 pm
The most obvious would be that he's hiding something incriminating.
As for his claims that it would be better for us to lynch him later and focus on the true evils instead, I can only imagine that he'd have to be a conspirator and wants to kill off the one or other infected first.
But he's also claiming he's not a conspirator. :roll:
Or he doesn't know what to say and is stalling until other people reveal more NTA details or roles.

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#2363

Post by Rene »

Heffie wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 11:32 pm
This is frustrating because we got no response from @Rene.
Unbelievable argument, I posted like how many times already 20? And I've said it many times that I tend to be asleep between 20 gmt - 1 gmt.
What time is it right now? 2:25?

You're the only person that's all mysterious and has never come up with a claim at all, @Heffie. Just joining up on the bandwagons of lynches and pointing fingers without giving the town anything useful to work with.

---

But okay, fine. I've told you it's fine if town wanted a full reveal and defense if that's the only way they can focus on going forward. So I will do that.

I'm Renegade, the Chief Scientist of the CROWN project Ops. I am allegedly the most respected individual in the base as my microbiology expertise is unequalled in the station and perhaps in the world.

Smarter people probably have figured this out on their own already, but what does someone that claims the following :

1.)No NTA.
2.)Not a third factioner.
3.)Has an important role.

Can possibly be? Other than the Mayor of the town.

I am the superior voter and the later we get into the game, the more impactful I get. Because of the numbers. More importantly so I can essentially cancel all the votes on myself, however it comes with a price for the town. Because when I resort to that DTA, it immediately puts us in night. That's harmful to town however you look at it. So if you need a demonstration of it I can give that to you, it's for the town's best interest if we WAIT till the deadline and sort everything else first, as I begged for dozens of posts now.

So yeah, I'm immune at Day-time, vulnerable at Night-time. The latter is the reason why I played an open for interpretation game this far, it was important for the town to have slight doubts about me so I could carry on alive without being targeted by the neutral killers or the mafia, that they can turn on me when I look weak and also reveal myself like this to make the most out of my abilities. Just like how it happened this time.

And that's the reveal, but where's the defense?

Let me make the most obvious defense now, as belated as it is, why would another Mafia member defend Emilly the way I did? To get them next in line? Has Mafia's number dwindled too low that it's impossible for them to win without turning up to save each other? We all know that's not the case. I tend to believe that's why Gridfon hasn't voted for me.

My defenses or attacks on other players was always around semantics or contradictions given by the NTAs of others. I never forged anything I wasn't given with. I didn't force Bombaclaat to make false charts or tinker with its boxes on my own. Is it a honest mistake? Maybe. But that's all YOUR doing. You're arguing that third factioners should be kept alive but you vote for two of them, that's your doing.

But yeah, can they be innocent? Of course. Because the sheer amount of time and effort that went into this game is apparently forcing anyone to make such mistakes. And unfortunately, given my role, those mistakes and behavioral analysis are the only foundations for any conclusion that I can reach.

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#2364

Post by Rene »

People that went really hard on me despite my defense of that I can't vote today and I should be left last if I'm to be lynched, because I've an unknown reason that is actually useful to the town.

It essentially meant: You've nothing to lose if I'm lying to you, because I can't vote anyways. But if I'm honest, you earn that boon I was mysteriously hinting at.

So the townie behavior would be to take up on that offer, but what happened instead?

More than half of you still kept going for me. Scums are amongst the people that kept pushing for me. Unlike @Skuggi, @Gridfon and @Sander, for example. They either took up on what I hinted at or just believed me to be relatively innocent to begin with. But even @Noni kept pushing for me to an extent. @Zero, @Clemens, @Heffie, @Bombaclaat, @phox, @behemoth and @Valli, you all did. You all did something contradicting with the town's best interest.

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#2365

Post by Noni »

Either my memory is crap or I've never played a game with a mayor before.
So yes, @Rene i did push for you to come forward because what you were saying just did not make sense to me.
So your dta works by turning a day when you are voted into a no lynch and forcing the day to end?

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#2366

Post by Noni »

"smarter people" have already figured it out. Guess I'm not one of them. Can the smarter people please share with the group next time?

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#2367

Post by Rene »

Noni wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:52 am
So yes, @Rene i did push for you to come forward because what you were saying just did not make sense to me.
I struggle to believe how it made no sense, as I never asked to not get lynched. I only asked to get lynched last, since I can't vote, there could be no harm coming from it. Really simple request, but you failed to comply along with many others. It doesn't mean I'll overlook your entire play so far, simply because you did that. Or Valli's, for example. Still a disappointment in total. Anyways:

The day time debates have three options while going forward:

1.) Keep scrutinizing my ability, role and claim then waste even more time, like the one third that's already revolved around me isn't already enough.

2.) Take my word that I am immune at daytime, ignore me and go for other suspects, before you:

2.a) Ask me to demonstrate my ability after we settle all of the day's discussions.
2.b) Do not force me to use my DTA, because I never disclosed how many times I can use that ability. And I've no intention of doing that even if I die at any point.

3.) Disbelieve me altogether, keep your votes on me and get thrown into night at an instant for doing that. @phox, @Bombaclaat, @zero. Looking at you three, this is an open threat for you. Along with anyone else willing to join them in voting me.

Your call.

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#2368

Post by Noni »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 6:22 am
Noni wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:52 am
So yes, @Rene i did push for you to come forward because what you were saying just did not make sense to me.
I struggle to believe how it made no sense, as I never asked to not get lynched. I only asked to get lynched last, since I can't vote, there could be no harm coming from it. Really simple request, but you failed to comply along with many others. It doesn't mean I'll overlook your entire play so far, simply because you did that. Or Valli's, for example. Still a disappointment in total. Anyways:

The day time debates have three options while going forward:

1.) Keep scrutinizing my ability, role and claim then waste even more time, like the one third that's already revolved around me isn't already enough.

2.) Take my word that I am immune at daytime, ignore me and go for other suspects, before you:

2.a) Ask me to demonstrate my ability after we settle all of the day's discussions.
2.b) Do not force me to use my DTA, because I never disclosed how many times I can use that ability. And I've no intention of doing that even if I die at any point.

3.) Disbelieve me altogether, keep your votes on me and get thrown into night at an instant for doing that. @phox, @Bombaclaat, @zero. Looking at you three, this is an open threat for you. Along with anyone else willing to join them in voting me.

Your call.
1. Nobody needs to "comply" with what you say.
2. What you did could be seen as stalling as we had no reason to trust you really
3. Why are you getting so defensive?! You weren't in danger of being lynched not even deadline lynched. People just wanted some answers.

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#2369

Post by Noni »

Your tone alone makes me want to vote you! :x

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#2370

Post by valli »

@Rene you brought this on yourself with your "smart" play don't blame us if your style of game play does not work out.

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#2371

Post by MrWaffles »

Hi @Rene,

If you had this ability, why didn't you just tell us immediately at the start of this day? Why ask to wait till end of day to reveal? We can easily decide whether we trust you or we want to risk an immediate night cycle.

I am worried you waited because you were not decided on what role to declare. I am wondering if you were hoping something interesting would happen today, so that you could tailor a role claim revolving around it. Even though you could not vote, waiting would improve your chances of having a believable role.

However, I do not have proof of the above and I am not accusing you. I'm just hoping you can address my concerns.

-MrWaffles

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#2372

Post by MrWaffles »

Also, by keeping your role a mystery, we have only been debating you so far. In a way, not revealing us has pushed us closer to another night cycle anyway.

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#2373

Post by Rene »

1. Nobody needs to "comply" with what you say.
Not because I say that, but logic demands it, actually. Sorry that you are feeling hurt, but if it's not about intentions then it's intellect. That's the sad reality. There was no reason for me to be put up for a lynch first, with that pressure, since I'm already vote locked. End of discussion.
2. What you did could be seen as stalling as we had no reason to trust you really.
Everyone is stalling since the day one, I claimed I have something beneficial if we can wait till the deadline. And that could very well be a bluff. Simply thrown out to categorize people who'd measure the town's win/loss by voting me or not voting me. Bluffs like those are valid plays.
3. Why are you getting so defensive?! You weren't in danger of being lynched not even deadline lynched. People just wanted some answers.
I tried being nice and co-operative, I tried offering logical answers to my actions for 20ish posts, I made a very simple and fully logical request based on the only known NTA used last night. Nobody cared.

Apparently this approach was wrong, and it is no longer necessary, as you said, I was never in danger of dying to a lynch.

I'm not being defensive, I'm just being crude to the point. This tone will not shift. You'll have to deal with it.


---
If you had this ability, why didn't you just tell us immediately at the start of this day? Why ask to wait till end of day to reveal? We can easily decide whether we trust you or we want to risk an immediate night cycle.
It shouldn't have been necessary, the fact that I'm vote locked was supposed to be enough to carry me to deadline, but now because I was the only direction town was headed. I had to reveal. But as you can see, this gives more time and space to discuss things over my abilities and claim. Just another way to waste day-time. I'm sure you can see why I didn't want to make it about me until deadline better now, no?

Revealing doesn't put an end to discussions about me, it didn't and it will not. But perhaps the not so subtle threat about immediate night will pull people back to their senses, at least that's what I hope for.

Rene
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#2374

Post by Rene »

MrWaffles wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:19 am
Also, by keeping your role a mystery, we have only been debating you so far. In a way, not revealing us has pushed us closer to another night cycle anyway.
That's the debaters fault, not everyone have been all over me after my request.

MrWaffles
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#2375

Post by MrWaffles »

I'm not convinced about @Rene's ability, but it makes no sense to lynch him in the middle of our day anymore. We can just test his claim at the end of a day by deadline or instant vote.

If Rene's claim is not true, he dies with a vote anyway. Unfortunately, I cannot remove my vote from you.

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#2376

Post by Noni »

Oh well with your superior intellect you should have helped more during days 1-3 or at least help us lesser intellectually endowed on day 4 to fully comprehend your superior logic.
But all you did is play poorly and then make demands when you don't have a leg to stand on.

I'm not hurt by anything you say i'm annoyed by your incredible arrogance and less than helpful attitude.

If I wasn't worried about numbers I'd vote you right this moment.

Who knows, I still may vote you just to test your wonderful dta.

zero
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#2377

Post by zero »

Sander wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:08 pm
I went for noni. Zero, who did you go for?
MrWaffles wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 8:32 pm
@zero, did you try to save anyone last night? Sander saved Noni, but Noni watched her own door and did not see an attacker. Since no one got infected today, whoever you saved might be innocent (as Mafia won't target Mafia).

Edit: Unless there are other pro-town blockers still in the game or the Mafia targeted Telvek (which would probably be dumb).
I haven't called anyone into my room last night. The main reason behind it was that I thought I will most likely be targeted and did not want to risk the life of an innocent with me as well. However, I haven't revealed all information regarding my NTA for obvious reasons which pertain to my own well being.

I have the option of either calling someone in my room to offer him protection or spend the night in another players room for my protection.
The same caveat applies though and if the room where I choose to spend the night gets targeted, I am exposed to the same action as my host. Consequently, last night I chose to spend the night in @Telvek's room because I was absolutely certain that if he is townie or one of the lunatics, the mafia would not waste a kill on him.

As a result, there is a high probability that my room was targeted last night by the mafia but I wasn't there.

As you can see, choosing not to mention this second part of my NTA was most likely a wise move notwithstanding the fact that it wouldn't have provided any added value to yesterday's deliberations regarding @emily.

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#2378

Post by Rene »

Noni wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:40 am
Oh well with your superior intellect you should have helped more during days 1-3 or at least help us lesser intellectually endowed on day 4 to fully comprehend your superior logic.
But all you did is play poorly and then make demands when you don't have a leg to stand on.
I never claimed I played this game good, not with all the misleading hints left all over the place. But all my actions are aligned if you look into them. I did my best to explain one simple equation to you with 20 posts and I apparently failed at that. Can be my fault, as well as it's yours. I'm not saying I'm superior intellectually, I'm just saying you missed the mark big time. Own it and move on.
I'm not hurt by anything you say i'm annoyed by your incredible arrogance and less than helpful attitude.
If I wasn't worried about numbers I'd vote you right this moment.
Do it. You'll just prove my ability and my innocence along with it. If we can't follow simple logic, then faster we lose is the better. Not every game is winnable.

zero
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#2379

Post by zero »

Heffie wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 11:32 pm
This is frustrating because we got no response from @Rene or @zero .

I feel like I need to go through the posts once more but I won't be able to tonight. Open to suggestions as I'm trying to consider other avenues besides voting for @rene.
I find your first claim disingenuous to say the least @Heffie. The questions addressed to me were raised only a few hours ago and I haven't been online since yesterday morning.

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#2380

Post by Noni »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:50 am
Noni wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:40 am
Oh well with your superior intellect you should have helped more during days 1-3 or at least help us lesser intellectually endowed on day 4 to fully comprehend your superior logic.
But all you did is play poorly and then make demands when you don't have a leg to stand on.
I never claimed I played this game good, not with all the misleading hints left all over the place. But all my actions are aligned if you look into them. I did my best to explain one simple equation to you with 20 posts and I apparently failed at that. Can be my fault, as well as it's yours. I'm not saying I'm superior intellectually, I'm just saying you missed the mark big time. Own it and move on.
I'm not hurt by anything you say i'm annoyed by your incredible arrogance and less than helpful attitude.
If I wasn't worried about numbers I'd vote you right this moment.
Do it. You'll just prove my ability and my innocence along with it. If we can't follow simple logic, then faster we lose is the better. Not every game is winnable.
I'm not getting into this with you cause it's pointless. It was logical from your point of view because you had more information but not logical from our point of view.
If this is "trying your best", it's not great mate!

I'll own any mistakes I've made but this was not one of them. All I did was asked for your role.

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#2381

Post by Rene »

It was logical from your point of view because you had more information but not logical from our point of view.
The only information that required to be known was that I was vote blocked and it was publicly available. You keep making it about my role and reveal, while it wasn't the case.

However, I'm glad you decided to drop this for whatever reason, as it's in the town's best interest.

zero
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#2382

Post by zero »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:25 am
Unbelievable argument, I posted like how many times already 20? And I've said it many times that I tend to be asleep between 20 gmt - 1 gmt.
What time is it right now? 2:25?

You're the only person that's all mysterious and has never come up with a claim at all, @Heffie. Just joining up on the bandwagons of lynches and pointing fingers without giving the town anything useful to work with.

---

But okay, fine. I've told you it's fine if town wanted a full reveal and defense if that's the only way they can focus on going forward. So I will do that.

I'm Renegade, the Chief Scientist of the CROWN project Ops. I am allegedly the most respected individual in the base as my microbiology expertise is unequalled in the station and perhaps in the world.

Smarter people probably have figured this out on their own already, but what does someone that claims the following :

1.)No NTA.
2.)Not a third factioner.
3.)Has an important role.

Can possibly be? Other than the Mayor of the town.
I am happy to be contradicted by people who played in games moderated by @Daemon on other forums but in more than 15 years of playing mafia, I have never seen the role of Mayor used in any game and I also played in quite a few games moderated by @Daemon. In fact, I didn't even know about it until this very morning. Moreover, claiming that "smarter" people have already figured your role out based on those 3 points is completely delusional since nobody can unequivocally confirm any of them.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:25 am
I am the superior voter and the later we get into the game, the more impactful I get. Because of the numbers. More importantly so I can essentially cancel all the votes on myself, however it comes with a price for the town. Because when I resort to that DTA, it immediately puts us in night. That's harmful to town however you look at it. So if you need a demonstration of it I can give that to you, it's for the town's best interest if we WAIT till the deadline and sort everything else first, as I begged for dozens of posts now.
Never heard of such role before but entertain me, how would you signal to @Daemon that you want to use your DTA? Because I assume you get to choose whether you do so or not. I have never seen a dynamic DTA in action in a mafia game before.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:25 am
So yeah, I'm immune at Day-time, vulnerable at Night-time. The latter is the reason why I played an open for interpretation game this far, it was important for the town to have slight doubts about me so I could carry on alive without being targeted by the neutral killers or the mafia, that they can turn on me when I look weak and also reveal myself like this to make the most out of my abilities. Just like how it happened this time.
You know what would have been EVEN more important for the town than you staying alive in order to use your wizardry to protect YOURSELF from a day time lynch? Actually helping out with lynching the mafia (and lunatics). But you didn't. It is obvious you are stalling for a good reason, it's just that I do not believe it is the reason you are giving us. The same tactics have been employed throughout this game by both the mafia (e.g., @Mary) and the lunatics (e.g., @Nanaa) factions and it seems that both of them had good reasons to do so. In the case of @Mary, the mafia could have probably decoupled her from @EC the following night while in the case of @Nanaa, the info from @Daemon seem to suggest that the lunatics would have turned violent.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:25 am
And that's the reveal, but where's the defense?

Let me make the most obvious defense now, as belated as it is, why would another Mafia member defend Emilly the way I did? To get them next in line? Has Mafia's number dwindled too low that it's impossible for them to win without turning up to save each other? We all know that's not the case. I tend to believe that's why Gridfon hasn't voted for me.
Because their numbers might be in fact lower than we think due to the second faction of lunatics? Didn't @emily defend @Mary with everything she got which ultimately got her into trouble? Not only did you viciously defend @Emily, you didnt even help us lynch @Mary.

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:25 am
My defenses or attacks on other players was always around semantics or contradictions given by the NTAs of others. I never forged anything I wasn't given with. I didn't force Bombaclaat to make false charts or tinker with its boxes on my own. Is it a honest mistake? Maybe. But that's all YOUR doing. You're arguing that third factioners should be kept alive but you vote for two of them, that's your doing.

But yeah, can they be innocent? Of course. Because the sheer amount of time and effort that went into this game is apparently forcing anyone to make such mistakes. And unfortunately, given my role, those mistakes and behavioral analysis are the only foundations for any conclusion that I can reach.
This does not excuse your voting record. There are players here with no NTAs either but they managed to help out and vote off both mafia and lunatics whereas you did not.

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#2383

Post by Clemens »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:42 am
@Zero, @Clemens, @Heffie, @Bombaclaat, @phox, @behemoth and @Valli, you all did. You all did something contradicting with the town's best interest.
Your "trust me, I am innocent" defense is not a defense; not now nor in the future.
Any scum can say that, and some even do.
Stop being butthurt about no one trusting you - it makes you look even less trustworthy.
Not being able to vote doesn't change anything either - because if you're infected, we need to find out if you are or not regardless.

All you did was stall and waste time, the thing you claim wanting to avoid.
Even assuming your role is true, you've been acting in a way that does not benefit the town - this includes your stalling and your voting.
So, once again, "believe me, you don't want to lynch me first" is not a defense. At all.
There was nothing logical nor smart in your stalling, if you are innocent.

According to your own claimed playstyle, you would now vote for yourself because you're contradicting yourself. :roll:

You wasted time, fact.
If you turn out innocent, you're no different to Moxy and Radwulf.
Alright, then let's lynch @Rene at the end of the day.
Either he is lying and we dispose of him, or he's telling the truth and he can save himself to prove himself anyway <- that, @Rene, would have been the smarter way to handle this situation, coming forth with this instead of wasting time with "don't lynch me yet, I am innocent".

@zero
I believe to remember seeing DTAs in a @Daemon hosted game before. They are rare, though.

Clemens
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#2384

Post by Clemens »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we now have role claims from everyone except @Heffie, right?

Unless someone has an actual lead, I'd just get the remaining role(s) out there so we can process all the information properly.
(In-game) Today, tomorrow, and however many game days we get to.

Rene
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#2385

Post by Rene »

@zero

I explained all the votes I partook in and even the ones I've missed already, in great detail. It's no use repeating myself.
It is obvious you are stalling for a good reason, it's just that I do not believe it is the reason you are giving us. The same tactics have been employed throughout this game by both the mafia (e.g., @Mary) and the lunatics (e.g., @Nanaa) factions and it seems that both of them had good reasons to do so. In the case of @Mary, the mafia could have probably decoupled her from @EC the following night while in the case of @Nanaa, the info from @Daemon seem to suggest that the lunatics would have turned violent.
They were stalling to survive the day, I was only stalling to be left alone till the end of the day. This distinction apparently wasn't obvious enough, now I'm underlining it for the millionth time.
Didn't @emily defend @Mary with everything she got which ultimately got her into trouble?
Her fault, not mine.

You're free to do whatever you wish with me, because I've actions that can back up my words. Just know that you're responsible for it when it happens and we will move on.

@Clemens
Not being able to vote doesn't change anything either - because if you're infected, we need to find out if you are or not regardless.
It prevents the distraction, which we're already neck deep while discussing myself. This again, isn't my fault but yours. The fact that I was vote blocked warrants enough for me to be looked last at. Not never looked at.
All you did was stall and waste time, the thing you claim wanting to avoid.There was nothing logical nor smart in your stalling, if you are innocent.
Not really, to repeat myself, I offered the town a prize in a situation they had nothing to lose but much to gain. It's a simple equation really. You could have just lynched me like you lynched Mary, turning a blind eye first. But you did not? Why, because your intentions are bad.

But not all of the people pushing for me must have had bad intentions, hence I brought up the intellect argument. There you go Clemens. Is this simple enough for you to understand?
According to your own claimed playstyle, you would now vote for yourself because you're contradicting yourself. :roll:
No it doesn't. I would have definitely suspected myself, but I wouldn't vote for myself.

Rene
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#2386

Post by Rene »

Either he is lying and we dispose of him, or he's telling the truth and he can save himself to prove himself anyway <- that, @Rene, would have been the smarter way to handle this situation, coming forth with this instead of wasting time with "don't lynch me yet, I am innocent".
You edited your post?

Well, first of all. My reveal hardforces town into set actions. My soft defense with the bluff doesn't. Revealing first is the safe play, it's the non alienating play. But it's the wrong play sorry. Because I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm innocent, as I don't need to do that. I'm trying to get the most out of this situation to get more information at hand.

Now I trust Gridfon, Skuggi and Sander more than you guys. You are arguing that it was wasted time and I disagree wholeheartedly.

Rene
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#2387

Post by Rene »

Also, really sorry for the triple post. But I never came up with a defense like "I'm innocent". Don't put words into my mouth. All I ever asked for was to see the deadline.

Clemens
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#2388

Post by Clemens »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
It prevents the distraction, which we're already neck deep while discussing myself. This again, isn't my fault but yours. The fact that I was vote blocked warrants enough for me to be looked last at. Not never looked at.
It doesn't.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
I offered the town a prize in a situation they had nothing to lose but much to gain. It's a simple equation really.
It wasn't an offer, nor even a logical equation. Keep fooling yourself.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
You could have just lynched me like you lynched Mary, turning a blind eye first. But you did not? Why, because your intentions are bad.
What are you talking about? We instant-lynched Mary very quickly because we were convinced she was infected.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
But not all of the people pushing for me must have had bad intentions, hence I brought up the intellect argument. There you go Clemens. Is this simple enough for you to understand?
It's pointless to talk about intellect.
You've got innocents as an uninformed majority (this means severely lacking in information) who have no other choice but to discuss options during the day as they can't possibly know which side you are on (or which side anyone is on), which was the whole point of asking you for details instead of stalling; and of course you have the informed minority that will gladly sit around waiting for you to waste the day away so they can hide back into the night.
It is very clear which side you were helping for an entire day.
So why not sooner? Because you had some kind of delussional grandeur about being the most trustworthy of trusted innocents despite your actions and words suggesting the opposite. Get over yourself and let's find some baddies.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:49 am
Revealing first is the safe play, it's the non alienating play. But it's the wrong play sorry. Because I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm innocent, as I don't need to do that.
The result very much proves it was the wrong play. Remain delussional, though, your choice.

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:49 am
You edited your post?
No, it would say undernearth the post if it was edited. (Including how many times, if at all.)

My vote wasn't on you to begin with, but the more you were stalling the more likely it was going to happen.
Now, I'll reserve the vote for you until the end of the day instead - all I required was you actually backing up your wish with something substantial instead of begging.
Waiting on @Heffie.
@zero, what were your previous night results anyway?
It also looks like no one has any stalemate-breaking NTA results to work with, either.

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Noni
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#2389

Post by Noni »

It also looks like mafia didn't kill?

Rene
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#2390

Post by Rene »

Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:02 am
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
It prevents the distraction, which we're already neck deep while discussing myself. This again, isn't my fault but yours. The fact that I was vote blocked warrants enough for me to be looked last at. Not never looked at.
It doesn't.
It does. If you are arguing otherwise, at least give me reason.
Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:02 am
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
I offered the town a prize in a situation they had nothing to lose but much to gain. It's a simple equation really.
It wasn't an offer, nor even a logical equation. Keep fooling yourself.
It was an offer. Definitely, it was. The town knew there was nothing I could do, not a vote I can cast. You didn't even know I had a DTA, why be afraid of me? Just take me out AFTER anyone else. The offer had nothing in it substantially perhaps, but the promise was there. In reality though, taking it up would have saved you precious 1/2 of a day that's now entire gone. You want the prize? There it lies, all spoiled, by your hands.
Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:02 am
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
You could have just lynched me like you lynched Mary, turning a blind eye first. But you did not? Why, because your intentions are bad.
What are you talking about? We instant-lynched Mary very quickly because we were convinced she was infected.
You knew the action you were going to do with Mary so you left her to deadline while focusing on Emilly. You could've done the very same with me, for different reasons obviously.
Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:02 am
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:44 am
But not all of the people pushing for me must have had bad intentions, hence I brought up the intellect argument. There you go Clemens. Is this simple enough for you to understand?
It is very clear which side you were helping for an entire day.
So why not sooner? Because you had some kind of delussional grandeur about being the most trustworthy of trusted innocents despite your actions and words suggesting the opposite. Get over yourself and let's find some baddies.
It's very clear that I was the one keeping the discussion about myself. It's also why I made this reveal earlier than I intended to save time. It's why I've begged for this discussion around for me to be stopped with my ability. That clearly implies I wanted to waste more time, right? You're rotten Clemens, you truly are.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:49 am
Revealing first is the safe play, it's the non alienating play. But it's the wrong play sorry. Because I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm innocent, as I don't need to do that.
The result very much proves it was the wrong play. Remain delussional, though, your choice.[/quote]

I can not be accounted for your misplay. I got what I wanted out of it. You can whine at someone else about it.
Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:49 am
You edited your post?
No, it would say undernearth the post if it was edited. (Including how many times, if at all.)
No, it doesn't say that if you do it fast enough. Give it a try before arguing for it so confidently. But let's see if I can prove it to you.

Edit: This is an immediate edit

Clemens
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#2391

Post by Clemens »

Looking back at @Emilly's outcry, it happened after @valli damned her and @phox changed her vote. She could, theoretically, have been talking to either one of them. And with @valli now confirming that @phox is innocent, it could very well be that @Emilly felt betrayed by both of them. Unfortunately, assuming that @valli is guilty at this point is a weak lead at best.

On the other hand, @Emilly also strongly accused @zero and @Noni of being 100% Mafia once she started losing control over the situation. Does this mean they are innocent? Or was it a last-ditch effort to salvage the situation by giving them a false testimony to use in the future? Perhaps she was feeling betrayed by them.

Or @Emilly was talking to someone else entirely, or not actually talking to any allies to begin with.

Things I'll keep in mind for the future, but none of which I feel strongly enough about to go after.

Clemens
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#2392

Post by Clemens »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:24 am
[Rene trying to justify his own bad plays]
You claim to not want to stall nor distract the townies, but then you waste time trying to prove your point that cannot be proven because you are wrong.
Ok. Moving on.

Rene
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#2393

Post by Rene »

Unlike you, Clemens. I know how to back off when I'm wrong. But good call with moving on.

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Noni
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#2394

Post by Noni »

Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:29 am
Looking back at @Emilly's outcry, it happened after @valli damned her and @phox changed her vote. She could, theoretically, have been talking to either one of them. And with @valli now confirming that @phox is innocent, it could very well be that @Emilly felt betrayed by both of them. Unfortunately, assuming that @valli is guilty at this point is a weak lead at best.

On the other hand, @Emilly also strongly accused @zero and @Noni of being 100% Mafia once she started losing control over the situation. Does this mean they are innocent? Or was it a last-ditch effort to salvage the situation by giving them a false testimony to use in the future? Perhaps she was feeling betrayed by them.

Or @Emilly was talking to someone else entirely, or not actually talking to any allies to begin with.

Things I'll keep in mind for the future, but none of which I feel strongly enough about to go after.
Or maybe betrayed her by calling her out on her lie! Uuuuu!

Clemens
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#2395

Post by Clemens »

Noni wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:33 am
Or maybe betrayed her by calling her out on her lie! Uuuuu!
Possibly, and this may come in handy in the later days, but for now it's just my speculations at best. :D

MrWaffles
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#2396

Post by MrWaffles »

Hi all,

Should we maybe try to instant lynch Rene just a little bit early if there is nothing else to discuss today? Let's say end of tonight or Sunday morning. That way, if he is lying, we have time during this game day to put his real role into perspective.

If he is telling the truth but we have nothing else to do today, then we really don't miss any opportunity by ending the day early. Rene does not die, and a day where nothing would happen ends a little early.

Of course, if anyone has anything else to talk about, just tell us that and we won't instant lynch by end of night.

-MrWaffles

Clemens
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#2397

Post by Clemens »

MrWaffles wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:41 am
Should we maybe try to instant lynch Rene just a little bit early if there is nothing else to discuss today?
No.
If he's telling the truth, we cut the day short - that's not good.
If he's lying, it doesn't really matter if he dies early or at the end.

MrWaffles
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#2398

Post by MrWaffles »

Clemens wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:44 am
MrWaffles wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:41 am
Should we maybe try to instant lynch Rene just a little bit early if there is nothing else to discuss today?
No.
If he's telling the truth, we cut the day short - that's not good.
If he's lying, it doesn't really matter if he dies early or at the end.
Fine, can we instant lynch him just a couple hours before the deadline? If the day does not reset, knowing his real role can help us today. And if the last couple hours of Sunday did not have much debate left, then we're not really losing much, right?

Rene
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#2399

Post by Rene »

Just make sure to notify me when you want me to cancel the votes in advance. I'm just assuming deadline is the ideal time for the town because it requires less votes for you to lynch. But honestly I'd rather use it an hour or two before that. My sleep schedule and all that. I'll try to make an exception and stay awake further for this instance though.

MrWaffles
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#2400

Post by MrWaffles »

Rene wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 am
Just make sure to notify me when you want me to cancel the votes in advance. I'm just assuming deadline is the ideal time for the town because it requires less votes for you to lynch. But honestly I'd rather use it an hour or two before that. My sleep schedule and all that. I'll try to make an exception and stay awake further for this instance though.
Got it. @Rene, if we agree to a time to do instant lynch which is a couple hours before the deadline, would that be OK for you?

-MrWaffles

Edit: "Agree now" is what I meant

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